ALL BLOG POSTS AND COMMENTS COPYRIGHT (C) 2003-2018 VOX DAY. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. REPRODUCTION WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED.

Sunday, December 31, 2017

Why THE LAST CLOSET matters

More young women than you would probably believe were heavily influenced by the twisted psyche of Marion Zimmer Bradley.
I still cannot imagine anything more perfectly aligned with my thirteen-year-old sensibilities than Marion Zimmer Bradley’s masterpiece. Bradley opened my eyes to the idea that, when we look at the past, we are only ever seeing a small part of it — and usually, what we are seeing excludes the experiences of women. Encountering the vain, self-serving, diabolical Morgan le Fay transformed into the priestess Morgaine compelled me to question other received narratives in which women are to blame for the failures of men. The Mists of Avalon also gave me a glimpse of spiritual possibilities beyond male-dominated, male-defined religions. In retrospect, I can see that it gave me ways of seeing that helped me find the feminine even within patriarchal systems while studying religion as an undergrad. The impact of this book lingers in my feminism, certainly, but it also influenced my scholarly interest in folklore, and it still informs my personal spirituality.

But my primary reaction to The Mists of Avalon, when I first read it, wasn’t intellectual; it was emotional. Like The Once and Future King, Bradley’s novel follows its protagonist from childhood into old age. I sympathized with the girl Morgaine, and her adolescent experiences hinted at frustrations I was just beginning to feel. The moment when Morgaine and Lancelet are, finally, about to become lovers — and then Gwenhwyfar, blonde and fair and lithe and helpless, stumbles into Avalon… No matter how many times I revisit this scene, it still crushes me. This isn’t a story about the pretty girl, the princess. It’s the story of the smart girl who becomes a powerful woman. Even so, Bradley brings nuance to these characters. She shows us Morgaine doing foolish, selfish things, and she shows us that Gwenhwyfar’s position is an impossible one. Doom hangs over Arthur’s glorious reign, just as fate rules many a legend and fable. There is no happy ending for anyone at Camelot — there never has been — but Bradley shows us real people struggling against their destiny, and she shows us that it’s not just impersonal fortune to blame for their inevitable downfall. Instead, it’s systems of oppression. By the time I left home for a women’s college in 1989, I’d reread The Mists of Avalon several times. I arrived ready to smash the patriarchy.
It's easy to claim that the book is not the author, because that is true. But in cases such as this, it is impossible to separate the theme, and more importantly, the message, of the book from the beliefs of the author. There are those authors who are intellectually ruthless enough to accurately represent beliefs they do not hold, but there are not very many such others and Marion Zimmer Bradley was certainly not one of them.

Her personal ideosyncracies not only informed, they dictated the nature of her works, which amounted to pure feminist propaganda. This is readily apparent in even her earliest writings. You cannot read The Mists of Avalon without realizing that it stems from the bitterness of a plain little dark-haired woman who cannot attract the handsome warriors and hates the tall pretty blonde girls who do. It's essentially a medieval female Revenge of the Nerds. No wonder it was popular in feminist and proto-feminist circles.

And it was popular despite its twisted sexuality and its infamous scene of ritualized child abuse, a scene that its fans still defend as "a description of people who have passed beyond the normal world and into the sacred time of a fertility ritual."

But the abuse of children is no more justifiable in that context than it was at Greyhaven, especially when there is absolutely no anthropological basis for it. And that is why The Last Closet is important, because it exposes the lie behind which so much evil hides itself.

Labels: ,

139 Comments:

Anonymous E Deploribus Unum December 31, 2017 5:08 AM  

Well put. That's quite an eye-opener.

Blogger The Kurgan December 31, 2017 5:17 AM  

Yes. Thanks for publishing this book Vox.

Blogger urbino December 31, 2017 5:26 AM  

I'm no stranger to evil but still this book is a shocking read.

VD, in your opinion how likely is it that the SJWs will eventually wage an all-out campaign to normalize pedophilia? Including forcing politicians to support them and attacking academics such as child psychologists who insist that it's harmful.

Blogger pdwalker December 31, 2017 5:33 AM  

Urbino, it’s already happening. Look for the articles exclaiming that pedos are not evil, just misunderstood.

Blogger VD December 31, 2017 5:37 AM  

VD, in your opinion how likely is it that the SJWs will eventually wage an all-out campaign to normalize pedophilia?

I would say there is about a 65 percent probability that they will. Their initial forays have not been well-received and the pendulum is already beginning to swing back on trannies and gays.

Blogger Cataline Sergius December 31, 2017 5:37 AM  

This work was incredibly important and Moira Greyland was unbelievably brave for writing it.

Blogger Cataline Sergius December 31, 2017 5:59 AM  

This comment has been removed by the author.

Blogger Cataline Sergius December 31, 2017 6:08 AM  

You can't separate a book from it's author. The story came from somewhere. Their lives and experiences inform their creations.

Take a less horrifying example we are all familiar with now. Scalzi's ridiculous characters. The army Captain who suddenly has a screaming tantrum at a man he only suspects is a former Marine Sergeant for the the crime of being a "High School Jock". The Blowjob Scene from Red Shirts that was actually damned funny but not in the way Scalzi meant it to be. And most recently Keva's gawpingly awful sex scene in Collapsing Empire. A girl that had sexually harassed a junior employee of her mother's for six weeks.

Scalzi's sad life as an abandoned son, stuck in a wheelchair during gym class created all of these.

The pathology of Marion Zimmer Bradley is more horrific. A victim of brutal incestuous rape who passed on the crimes of her father upon her daughter. Bradley can no more be separated from her work than a surgeon can from his fingers.

Blogger Shimshon December 31, 2017 6:13 AM  

@8 Perhaps Vox is guilty of projecting onto other lesser authors his ability to write characters that are not extensions of himself?

Blogger Cataline Sergius December 31, 2017 7:04 AM  

It's not just SJWs losing heroes over this.

Robert Heinlein has been problematic for a long time. His juvenile classics had a distinctly American voice. The struggles of his young men to find a mature manhood made them rolemodels to be emulated.

There were a few rumbles of trouble on the horizon with Glory Road and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Particularly with the side character of Manny's junior wife Ludmilla. But those could have been written off as an old, sick man's interest in young (if perhaps a little too young women). Besides, he was born in 1907 in Montana, he undoubtedly did know a number of women who had been married at twelve. Fine, times changed and he didn't keep up with them.

Then came Stranger in a Strangeland, the later half of which is so hippyish you'd think it was written by a different author. Which isn't a surprise since it spent years bouncing in and out of his filing cabinet.

But then came I Will Fear No Evil. A title that accurately describes the rest of this career.

Heinlein would have done his reputation no small favor if he had died on the operating table.

Time Enough for Love began his revolting obsession with incest.

I tried to dimiss that as something he clearly never acted on since he never had kids and didn't like his sister. Fine he was slipping a few cogs as he got older and besides controversy had driven his sales to national prominence once before maybe he thought it would do so again. He had a wife and many, many cats to look after.

Then I read his sympathetic letter to Marion Zimmer Bradley on the occasion of Walter Breen being banned from Worldcon in 1964 for being a known pedophile.

I can't separate the author from the work. I'm done with Robert Heinlein.

Blogger exfarmkid December 31, 2017 7:09 AM  

Read "Mists of Avalon" thirty years ago. It left a feeling of being very unclean and just generally wrong. Also avoided dating (or attempting to date) the young ladies who had recommended the book....

Blogger Yorwak Kaheen December 31, 2017 7:09 AM  

@3
That is already happening. In fact, that is something that far left academia has been tackling for some time now. As for SFF fandom, their covering for Marion Zimmer Bradley and, especially, their constant championing of "Chip" Delany - latter being to NAMBLA what Cruise is to Scientology! - tells you all you need to know.

Anonymous Looking Glass December 31, 2017 7:14 AM  

@3 urbino

They're doing their slow normalization scheme, so it might be a decade out before they try. The Hillary loss puts them further behind schedule on that one, but the main difference between this is normalizing homosexuals is that no one really cared about homosexuals that much.

The sexual devolution already happened in the 1960s and homosexuals were able to already live their lives in a few places for ages. That's very different when it comes to pedophiles. Anyone that gets too far out ahead of the issue is, functionally, on a list, and if the pendulum swings back against them, they'll end up dead and everyone will cheer. They do this stuff over the course of decades, but it's a lot further afield than with homosexuals.

Blogger The Observer December 31, 2017 7:19 AM  

@3: It's not just pedophilia - a few rags have come out about the joy of incest too, particularly of the father-daughter kind.

The sexual devolution already happened in the 1960s and homosexuals were able to already live their lives in a few places for ages.

Personally, I think a good way to deal with homosexuals is something like Singapore, and how it worked in much of the West until recent decades. Nominally illegal, but most people give it a blind eye until some freaks decide to try and turn the issue into a political weapon. Then the system comes down on the fags like a ton of bricks. Nominal illegality also means that those suffering the complications of that degenerate lifestyle can't easily get help, which requires them to refrain from their worst excesses or ends up culling them over time.

Blogger szopen December 31, 2017 7:40 AM  

Cataline Sergius wrote:You can't separate a book from it's author. The story came from somewhere. Their lives and experiences inform their creations.

That's true; But it depends on the author and the book. I know many here do not like Le Guin books. Yet I liked her earlier works, despite definetely being informed by her ideology. I enjoyed the crazy ideas, well served, thought-provoking. Then I started to read Tehanu and it was something completely different: instead of fantasy which could be a result of author's inclinations and views, instead you get old women preaching about her views and how bad men can be.

Moreover, while it's true that book must come from SOMEWHERE, when it's done, it's done. Your reception and interpretation of the book doesn't have to conform to what author had in mind. The Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" was not golorification of the fascist system - but yet I was told it was widely read that way, despite author supposedly complaining that public did not get it (heck, even today you can find summarising the book as "crypto-fascist"). The same thing about the movie adaptation: it's supposedly being a satire about fascism, yet most people just enjoy the movie.

Orwell was socialist, and yet 1984 still are the most interesting insight into what will the future look like if the leftists would win.

However, it definetely helps NOT knowing about the author, the context, authors views and so on.

Blogger Gordon Scott December 31, 2017 7:49 AM  

It's important to note: This is not a bitter screed. Moira Greyland's writing is clear, matter-of-fact and witty. Despite the terrible environment of her parent's home, and that she only sleeps there if she has no other options, Moira excels in everything she turns her hands or mind to. Somehow she sidesteps the hazards common to those from a background of abuse and soars above it all.

Blogger Doug Cranmer December 31, 2017 7:52 AM  

Yeah. That.

Blogger SteelPalm December 31, 2017 7:57 AM  

@10 Cataline Sergius

Eh, Heinlein had some strange beliefs (he was certainly in favor of polyamory and open marriages), but there are some inaccuracies in what you wrote.

To begin with, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress (1966) and The Glory Road (1963) were written after Stranger in a Strange Land (1961). Moreover, the latter was during the end of Heinlein's leftist/socialist period, while the other two were published during the beginning of his right-wing/individualist years.

I don't remember anything especially objectionable in "The Glory Road" with regards to sex. (In fact, the main character even notes his revulsion at having sex with "little brown sisters")

Ludmilla is 14 in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, not 12. I too give Heinlein a pass since that was not uncommon in the US during the 60s.

While I haven't read it, "Time Enough for Love" wouldn't be the first time Heinlein wrote a possibly quasi-incest plotline. That would be "The Door Into Summer", where the main character ends up marrying a girl who he is almost an adoptive father to. However, due to time travel, she is in her twenties when this occurs.

Given how much polyamory and open marriages are continuously celebrated throughout Heinlein's books, there is very scant evidence to suggest anything supporting pedophilia over his entire career and bibliography.

His defense of MZB is more disconcerting, but he may well have been ignorant of her true crimes.

Blogger VD December 31, 2017 7:58 AM  

Perhaps Vox is guilty of projecting onto other lesser authors his ability to write characters that are not extensions of himself?

My ability to do so is limited. As some critics have correctly noted, while I can write women, I have not yet shown any ability to write a) Gamma or Omega characters or b) characters with average or lesser intelligence.

Just more challenges for the future, I suppose.

Blogger SteelPalm December 31, 2017 8:01 AM  

@15 szopen

Orwell being a "socialist" up until the end of his life (I know he was one early on, before growing disillusioned) seems to be leftist revisionism. Perhaps there is some personal account or book I'm missing, but I haven't found any evidence of this in his essays, novels, etc. I've read from the from the 40's onwards.

Blogger manfred arcane December 31, 2017 8:03 AM  

@3
This has been going on for decades. Every time that they've tried to push for public acceptance tho, like with those articles on Salon and Cracked and so on about "virtuous pedophiles", public pushback was immediate and brutal to a point where they went back to keeping it to their own circles and pseudo-academic echo chambers.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/02/salon-removes-pro-pedophilia-articles-written-todd-nickerson-website/

Anonymous Lawyer Guy December 31, 2017 8:05 AM  

Decades ago I was in law school, and my crim law prof was Peter Weston, he was one of the commentators on the federal sentencing guidelines. He knew he had a few vets in the class--unusual year at Michigan because a few of the old veteran profs were on admissions committee our year. He went out of his way to insult the U.S. Military and veterans as much as he could, accuse us of crimes, all that crap.

I had been military police. Old Pete started talking a few times about child sex, and how we over punish the rapists because society is asking them to give up their sexuality. First time I figured maybe it was a hypothetical.

He kept it up, brought up Greek and Roman ancient sex practices, the cruelty of society demanding people give up their desires. About the third time I realized he was a pedo and was training the new generation of lawyers and judges that sex with kids is really okay.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr December 31, 2017 8:07 AM  

"The Last Closet" makes a very, very strong case that homosexuality IS the problem...because homosexuals are imprinted with that from their early sexual experiences. Meaning that pedophilia is inherent.

WRT "The Mists of Avalon", you could probably do a good book from a straight retelling of the Arthurian legends from a female perspective. The problem being that the gist would be, "Women Ruin Everything." If you think about it, the Round Table is smashed by the deceits of Nimue and Morgan le Fay, and the treason of Guinevere. It would make a VERY interesting cultural study...how much were the Arthurian legends shaped by the civil war that erupted around 1100, when the Empress Matilda laid claim to the throne of Henry I? Are we looking, to a degree, at a piece of anti-Matilda propaganda? (FWIW, a novelization of Matilda's life would be a real winner...adventures so crazy they wouldn't pass muster as fiction)

Blogger Amy December 31, 2017 8:08 AM  

Mists of Avalon rather turned me against feminism. I read about three-fourths of it, never finished it. I enjoy Arthur legends and stories, but this one didn’t capture my attention. It is heavy on man hate, I was repulsed by the graphic incest scene, and the lesbian scene, and there is nothing satisfactory about any if the episodes. The original story does feature incest, but in Mists, it was deliberately planned. There’s something terribly wrong with that.

Since the expose of abuse in Bradley’s home, I can’t have anything to do with her. I considered joining the Society for Creative Anachronism, so I could meet others who share some of my hobbies, but then I read she was an originator of the group, and the one who christened it such, so it’s out of consideration for me.

Blogger Lazarus December 31, 2017 8:14 AM  

The sexual act described here takes place around the Beltane fire. As a young reader, I was disturbed by it, but I saw it as a description of people who have passed beyond the normal world and into the sacred time of a fertility ritual. The scene was frightening for me as a child, and repellent, but also, I must admit, fascinating. In context, this passage made sense: The horror of the scene was an element of its power.

She neglected to add:

And it still turns me on! (but only in a sacred timey ritualistic kind of way)

Blogger The Observer December 31, 2017 8:15 AM  

I considered joining the Society for Creative Anachronism, so I could meet others who share some of my hobbies, but then I read she was an originator of the group, and the one who christened it such, so it’s out of consideration for me.

Why not consider setting up one of your own? We've got to set up our own platforms, after all. Find a handful of people who share your hobbies, set out the things you'd like to achieve, and move forward, keeping an eye out for SJW entryism all the time. There's no shortage of hobby clubs all around - so why not give it a go?

Blogger Resident Moron™ December 31, 2017 8:15 AM  

I read Mists of Avalon in my teens when it was first published. I thought the approach to arthurian legend novel (heh) but I have no strong memory of anything else in the story, not the incest or the child abuse or any other plot detail. I never purchased or read another MZB book so I can't have been too impressed by it. Maybe Vox is/was more aware of his visceral reactions than I was at the time (I was drunk and stoned a lot, so that would hardly be surprising).

By contrast, Guy Gavriel Kay's Fionavar Tapestry was published sometime during the 80's, too, and I've read nearly everything he's published since, even though his politics are not at all aligned to mine. I not only remember what made his version of arthur memorable but had re-read the trilogy several times in the decades since.

Some writers can separate themselves, at least a bit, from their work in its creation, some cannot. Some readers, it appears, likewise.

Anonymous johan December 31, 2017 8:16 AM  

@manfred arcane
While it looks like they went quiet on that particular front, those articles weren't even deleted due to reactions. They actually got rid of them during their campaign against Milo, when they suddenly switched into anti pedophilia mode. That is actually pretty common with them, kinda how Phil Sandifer vocally defended pedophiles for years, only to start shrieking about pedophilia when need arose to accuse opposite side of it on the flimsiest grounds (when he and his buddies were attacking cartoonist that was part of Puppies).

Blogger pyrrhus December 31, 2017 8:17 AM  

Moira Greyland is an amazing woman. She not only used her many talents to survive horrific abuse, but she was able to write a well balanced book about it that opens the door to understanding the link between homosexuality and pedophilia. Long ago I dealt with this professionally, and it was blatantly clear when we investigated prospective gay adoptive parents that they were totally unsuitable...Now that has gone by the board, with no doubt horrifying consequences.

Blogger szopen December 31, 2017 8:18 AM  

SteelPalm wrote:@15 szopen

Orwell being a "socialist" up until the end of his life (I know he was one early on, before growing disillusioned) seems to be leftist revisionism.

"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.” (1946)

http://orwell.ru/library/essays/wiw/english/e_wiw

He wasn't far left, wasn't a commie, was socialist in an old sense. A moderate left, but still socialist. Unless he radically changed his views between 1946 and 1949 (the time of publishing of 1984 - and from my experience, from the writing the book to publishing it even close to two years migh pass, at least a year), which I doubt.

Blogger szopen December 31, 2017 8:23 AM  

also, Steel Palm: this from 1947: http://orwell.ru/library/articles/European_Unity/english/e_teu
"a Socialist United States of Europe seems to me the only worth-while political objective today."

That still leaves a possibility that he would radically change his mind before writing 1984, but it does not seem likely. Older men do not change their mind so easily. He was socialist, and yet his two books on the left are the most powerful condemnation of the left totalitarianism - and he is definetely remembered for thsoe two books, surely not propagating the ideas he thought as dear to him.

Blogger Jew613 December 31, 2017 8:25 AM  

I tried to read Mists of Avalon, beyond the abusive sexuality and glorification of adultery, there's just an off feeling to the book. The same off feeling I've noticed in every feminist work.

Blogger Amy December 31, 2017 8:27 AM  

I could join a local weaving guild, they exist near enough to me, but so many that are interested in the particular types I like are already in the SCA and have encouraged me to join them.

As I network with more local spinners and weavers, some alternative will coalesce, I don’t need to cut it out of whole cloth. I’ve started working with a few alpaca and sheep farmers who are interested in learning my craft, they provide me with wool in exchange for farm help. Teaching their kids is a good in without getting involved with a bunch of LARPers.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr December 31, 2017 8:35 AM  

@24 Amy: IIRC, Jerry Pournelle was also involved in the SCA in its early years. It's not all bad.

On the other hand, there are groups that deal in post-medieval eras. You might be interested in one of those.

Blogger SteelPalm December 31, 2017 8:52 AM  

@30 and 31 szopen

Ah, thanks for those links. Was not aware of those writings and will check them out.

However, Orwell was not so terribly old when he wrote that or when he died. Had he lived another decade or so, as Stalin's crimes came to light in the West, he may have repudiated the version of socialism he idealized.

Blogger Mr.MantraMan December 31, 2017 8:53 AM  

"Smash the patriarchy" uh huh, sure the deviant womyn have rushed in to fill vacuum left by men, but that is a luxury civilization created by white men allows them.

Blogger szopen December 31, 2017 8:58 AM  

SteelPalm wrote:@30 and 31 szopen
Stalin's crimes came to light in the West, he may have repudiated the version of socialism he idealized.

Eh, no. Orwell was anti-stalinist and anti-communist for quite a long time. He thought that USSR is not a socialist country :D I think also he knew about those crimes, though not sure about that. Surely he hated stalinism while still being socialist.

Blogger Lovekraft December 31, 2017 8:58 AM  

From what I'm observing, there's a lot of eagerness for redpilling among the normies. I remember at work using VD's great line 'we don't care' on a couple women.

At least, on the facade, they aren't automatically tut-tutting it as they used to.

That said, there are many deep-rooted values that no amount of redpilling will overcome, and the left and its allies have vast resources with which to reintroduce them when the time is right.

I don't want to get too 'out there', but we have to recognize that there is a spiritual war being waged. Gird thyselves. Accept being ostracized for speaking truth and exposing falsehoods.

Blogger haus frau December 31, 2017 9:03 AM  

What stands out about Moira's story, to me anyway, is that all throughout her parents lives and probably even now, she is very torn between loving them and needing to hold them accountable for their abuse. Its very strange to read her account of how she interpreted her parents through her emotions. We know they were monsters but to her they were also mom and dad which is how they were able to get away with what they did to her up until her dad went to prison. Its also noteworthy that even as her parents became disgusting obese slobs with obvious mental pathologies the was still no end of parents willing to allow their children to spend alone time with, and not just the neglected runnaway kids either.

Blogger Cataline Sergius December 31, 2017 9:06 AM  

@18 Steelpalm

Time Enough For Love: LL bangs both his Mother and Father.

Number of the Beast: DeeTee bangs her father.

Job A Comedy of Justice: Whats-her-name encourages her husband to bang their daughter.

Cat Who Walks Through: It is heavily implied that Hazel bangs her underage great granddaughter.

To Sail Beyond the Sunset: Pretty much the entire family bangs each other.

I will grant you is that you might have read an earlier edition of Glory Road. The Baen reprint has a scene where a mother and her two under age daughters one of them thirteen offers a four-way with Oscar.

As far as Heinlein maybe not knowing. Bullshit. Read up on it. Everybody and by that I mean every swinging dick in the con circuit knew about Walter Breen. There is no way in Hell that Heinlein could have been ignorant.

Anonymous Avalanche December 31, 2017 9:12 AM  

VD: from the bitterness of a plain little dark-haired woman who cannot attract the handsome warriors and hates the tall pretty blonde girls who do. It's essentially a medieval female Revenge of the Nerds. No wonder it was popular in feminist and proto-feminist circles.

Haven't seen Revenge, so can't answer that specifically - but is not the "bitterness" you deprecate as the/a source for feminism the same bitterness of the nerds about the jocks getting the cheerleaders? (I.e., the human condition, and not specifically a 'failing' of plain dark-haired women?) I was not a plain dark-haired woman, I was a beautiful young woman, and STILL had my little girl's heart broken, as what girl (and boy, in the reverse) does not, by the handsome warrior preferring some other girl (blonde or not)?

Sure, Mists 'played upon' the hurt and jealousy of the rejected/jilted girl/woman. SO DOES SHAKESPEARE!! (Human condition, not female failing.)

And yet, Mists was not some weird description of Pictish marriage; the king marrying the land through a fertility rite wasn't weird or horrific. And it was not just "the savage Picts" (random samples):

"Roman girls tended to marry very young, though the law prohibited them from marrying below the age of twelve."

"The age of first marriage for free Roman girls normally was twelve to eighteen." ("The Greco-Roman World of the New Testament Era" Jeffers)

"Other legal documents and inscriptional information suggest that first marriages often took place between the ages of 12 and 15 since menarche usually occurred between 13 and 15." ("Children in Early Christian Narratives" Betsworth)

(CAPULET: My child is yet a stranger in the world; She hath not seen the change of fourteen years, Let two more summers wither in their pride, Ere we may think her ripe to be a bride.
PARIS: Younger than she are happy mothers made.
CAPULET: And too soon marr'd are those so early made.)


Please realize, I'm SO NOT trying to rehabilitate MZB! May she burn in hell alongside her pathological husband -- and may Lisa Waters join them there! However, I would ask for a consideration that it's not some weird horrible pathology specific ONLY to them and their "friends." Humans have been having and *seeing as normal* sex with young girls since before proto-humans became human. (Sex with young women is different from abusive sex with anyone.)

It is a sign of our 'advancement' that we (Western) moderns think it unacceptable (and so we deprecate it in the moslem and aboriginal "cultures").

I acknowledge you "normals" recoil at exposure to this, in a way we 'affecteds' do not. I believe it necessary for us affecteds to 'pull apart' the threads of damaging abuse from the (once and future?) 'normal' to come to some rapprochement with our experiences and how they formed (or malformed) us. Mists was groundbreaking and resonated with the experiences of young girls and women BACK THEN... Perhaps if it were first published now, it would have a very different reception. (I doubt it: human condition...)

Anonymous Avalanche December 31, 2017 9:23 AM  

@23 you could probably do a good book from a straight retelling of the Arthurian legends from a female perspective. The problem being that the gist would be, "Women Ruin Everything."

I would LOVE to read that!! What an interesting counterbalance...and as culture < politics; there's a way to untangle it?

Anonymous Avalanche December 31, 2017 9:27 AM  

@24 "Society for Creative Anachronism, so I could meet others who share some of my hobbies, but then I read she was an originator of the group, and the one who christened it such, so it's out of consideration for me."

?? Because nothing -- and no one -- good can come out of anything once touched by evil? Do you paint the thousands of people who have 'played' SCA (I have not) -- folks who have neither heard nor seen either pedophila OR MZB's connection with the SCA in any way -- as ALSO somehow evil and supporting pedos?

Is that not throwing the baby (babies) OUT with the bathwater?! Should you not, rather, try it out and SEE if you see anything bad, which you -- recognizing it -- can then perhaps take ACTION To stop?!

Blogger VD December 31, 2017 9:28 AM  

I was a beautiful young woman, and STILL had my little girl's heart broken, as what girl (and boy, in the reverse) does not, by the handsome warrior preferring some other girl (blonde or not)?

1. Stop being solipsistic. This isn't about you. It's about why MZB's book appealed to tens of millions of female losers.
2. No. There is a massive difference between losing out on an individual competition for a specific male and knowing that you are not even capable of being in the running.

Blogger CM December 31, 2017 9:28 AM  

@3: It's not just pedophilia - a few rags have come out about the joy of incest too, particularly of the father-daughter kind.

Incest is more likely to make headway because it builds on the premises accepted in homosexual marriage. You need very little "new" acceptance to make it work.

SSM: 2 consenting adults who love eachother.

Incest: 2 consenting adults who love eachother.

Also, it builds on already accepted social norms such as divided families, rampant adoption (raised by people you are not biologically related to), genetic donations (eggs and sperm). Genetic Sexual Attraction and sexual imprinting within biological family units has more scientific backing than genetic homosexuality does.

So I'd expect adult incest to precede pedophilia.

Blogger VD December 31, 2017 9:35 AM  

Sure, Mists 'played upon' the hurt and jealousy of the rejected/jilted girl/woman. SO DOES SHAKESPEARE!! (Human condition, not female failing.)

You're totally missing the point, Avalanche. Shakespeare did not appeal to those women. He did not turn them into feminists eager to smash the patriarchy. MZB did. There is a reason for that. And, as a former "beautiful young woman," you have absolutely no capacity whatsoever to understand the bitterness of knowing that you have no shot at ever being romantically involved with the type of individuals you find to be the most attractive.

Anonymous Avalanche December 31, 2017 9:38 AM  

@25 Church Lady? Is that you?! Sounds like you!

"The sexual act described here takes place around the Beltane fire. As a young reader, I was disturbed by it, but I saw it as a description of people who have passed beyond the normal world and into the sacred time of a fertility ritual."

I saw it as a weird non-Western ritual. I saw it the same way I see, e.g., the tattooing (or weird fight-dancing) of the Maori, or the weird sexual "initiation" rituals of various aboriginal tribes (did you know there's one (african, what else?) tribe where the boys "grow up to be men" by swallowing ejaculate of older men of the tribe? Talk about a SCAM!)

Maybe it's a girl-thing; I did NOT see that scene as a pornographic interlude, but as a hugely emotional (for both) initiation into adulthood. (Yes, through sex -- also the human condition; such initiations occur all over the planet!) Perhaps boys/men cannot 'imagine' themselves in the mental/emotional/psychological frame of an apparently pornographic scene; it would sure explain the differences between male and female porn!

Anonymous Chad December 31, 2017 9:39 AM  

“I was a beautiful young woman...”

So how fat were you?

Blogger The Observer December 31, 2017 9:41 AM  

@45:

Hm. That's a way to look at it. I'll have to consider that angle.

Incest is more likely to make headway because it builds on the premises accepted in homosexual marriage. You need very little "new" acceptance to make it work.

SSM: 2 consenting adults who love each other.

Incest: 2 consenting adults who love each other.


Which leads us to the point: for much of human history, marriage was explicitly for a number of reasons, primarily being the stable arrangement of a man and woman in a cooperate-cooperate prisoner's dilemma equilibrium for the explicit purpose of forming and raising families. Love, while helpful, was tangential to the purpose of the institution.

Once you predicate eros or even love as the reason for marriage, every other arrangement becomes an unprincipled exception and is whittled away by degenerate forces.

Blogger haus frau December 31, 2017 9:46 AM  

@45 everything you said and incest fundementally abuses and twists the normal family bonds. Considering that incest and pedophilia are heavily intertwined, sexualizing normal family bonds is integral to normalizing pedophilia. These activists must atomize the family, seperating children from healthy family bonds and protections, in order to fulfill their agenda and incest is extremely effective toward that end.

Blogger Elizabeth December 31, 2017 9:49 AM  

pyrrhus wrote:Moira Greyland is an amazing woman. She not only used her many talents to survive horrific abuse, but she was able to write a well balanced book about it that opens the door to understanding the link between homosexuality and pedophilia. Long ago I dealt with this professionally, and it was blatantly clear when we investigated prospective gay adoptive parents that they were totally unsuitable...Now that has gone by the board, with no doubt horrifying consequences.



Historically, pederasty - what we now call pedophilia - was more common than homosexual relationships between adults.

A good book to read is British journalist John Bradley's "Behind the Veil of Vice: Sex in the Middle East." Buggery between grown men and younger men and boys in common in Moslem countries. It's the price they pay for keeping men away from women. What would be considered sick would be a grown man attracted to another grown man, not a teenage boy.

Anonymous Avalanche December 31, 2017 9:49 AM  

@45 Also, it builds on already accepted social norms such as divided families, rampant adoption (raised by people you are not biologically related to), genetic donations (eggs and sperm). Genetic Sexual Attraction and sexual imprinting within biological family units has more scientific backing than genetic homosexuality does.

Wow. This is deep -- and kind-of a cultural epiphany! I often ascribe much of the destruction of Western civ to the intentional destruction of the (White Western) nuclear family -- but this is a rather bald and scathing (and useful!) description of it! Thanks!

Blogger Matt December 31, 2017 9:56 AM  

That they chose a hook-handed ghoul as their pedo posterboy tells you all you need to know about the retatded mind of the SJW.

Blogger szopen December 31, 2017 9:59 AM  

CM wrote:@3: It's not just pedophilia - a few rags have come out about the joy of incest too, particularly of the father-daughter kind.

Incest is more likely to make headway because it builds on the premises accepted in homosexual marriage. You need very little "new" acceptance to make it work.

SSM: 2 consenting adults who love eachother.

Incest: 2 consenting adults who love eachother.

As much as we would love to think this is far-fetched, it is not. There was already leftist "thinker" in Poland who proposed that incest should be legal. After a backslash he was saying "I was just thinking a theoretical scenario, I was not proposing that seriously!". There is also that:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11119062/Incest-a-fundamental-right-German-committee-says.html

Not care enough about western degenerates to find out more about that :D

Anonymous Avalanche December 31, 2017 9:59 AM  

@45 "I was a beautiful young woman...
So how fat were you?"

I wasn't. I was -- as young girls with a careful and protected upbringing are supposed to be -- unaware of my attractiveness and "SMV." My adult jaundice calls it "naive as hell!" I still, 50 years on, work to NOT call it (call myself!) 'stupid as hell'! It was that innocence that allowed a filthy disgusting n|gger pimp to try to take advantage of my innocence (at 15!): when I wasn't even able to tell him to leave me alone, nor to ask any passerby for help getting him to leave me alone. (First trip by myself to 'the big city' to meet my older sister for lunch. Thankfully, not the totally bad experience it might have been, but an unrecoverable loss of innocence.) And no, I did NOT become the racist I am today because of that -- I did not in any way attribute it to his race; he was merely a 'bad man' not a TNB.

(My husband used to tease about a photo of me at 14-15 by calling it "Pedophile's Delight.")

Blogger CM December 31, 2017 10:01 AM  

Which leads us to the point: for much of human history, marriage was explicitly for a number of reasons, primarily being the stable arrangement of a man and woman in a cooperate-cooperate prisoner's dilemma equilibrium for the explicit purpose of forming and raising families. Love, while helpful, was tangential to the purpose of the institution.

Once you predicate eros or even love as the reason for marriage, every other arrangement becomes an unprincipled exception and is whittled away by degenerate forces.


Precisely so. Scripture says to love your wife, not marry who you love. While marrying for love makes that command easier, ditching the husband-wife arrangement for anything that makes your heart beat faster is an actualized recipe for disaster.

@45 everything you said and incest fundementally abuses and twists the normal family bonds. Considering that incest and pedophilia are heavily intertwined, sexualizing normal family bonds is integral to normalizing pedophilia. These activists must atomize the family, seperating children from healthy family bonds and protections, in order to fulfill their agenda and incest is extremely effective toward that end.

I think the embracing of adult incest could lead to an acceptance of incestuous pedophilia and then pedophilia. Primarily through the corruption you speak of.

Anonymous Avalanche December 31, 2017 10:07 AM  

@56 "I think the embracing of adult incest could lead to an acceptance of incestuous pedophilia and then pedophilia. Primarily through the corruption you speak of."

And thus we are attacked on all sides with whatever ... prybar ... the left thinks they can use to pry normality open! ANY way to sneak up onto (a forced acceptance of) degeneration!

Blogger szopen December 31, 2017 10:15 AM  

Eh. I read this thread and I feel more and more sad.

Happy new year everyone - and let's hope the next year we will discuss how good it was to see all the pedophiles finally punished, their "thinker" enablers ousted from the position of power in academia and elsewhere.

Happy New year.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine December 31, 2017 10:25 AM  

Step 1: Destroy the pedos.

Step 2: Continue rolling back the red carpet on anything and everything else degenerate.

Blogger Skyler the Weird December 31, 2017 10:47 AM  

There are two books that have as a side story Empress Maude(Matilda) and her usurpation of King Stephen's Throne. "When Christ and His Saints Slept" by Sharon Kay Penland and the more fictional "Pillars of the Earth" by Ken Follett.

Maude does sound kinda like HRC.

Anonymous smore December 31, 2017 10:48 AM  

This pedophilia discussion goes back to the fact that there is no set definition of "child". We lack criterion for mental and sexual maturity.
Funny thing is that cultures that are otherwise admired by the Right actually practiced what we would now define as pedophilia: Not only the elephant in the room that is Ancient Greece, but marriages and sexual relations between men and barely teenage girls in Medieval Europe, sexual relations between men and boys in Ancient China...

Blogger Jew613 December 31, 2017 10:49 AM  

As an aside MZB was ugly even when she was young.

Blogger Skyler the Weird December 31, 2017 10:49 AM  

It will be awhile before the Left openly embraces incest as it is one of their excuses for abortion on demand.

Anonymous Wooly December 31, 2017 10:51 AM  

VD wrote:Perhaps Vox is guilty of projecting onto other lesser authors his ability to write characters that are not extensions of himself?

My ability to do so is limited. As some critics have correctly noted, while I can write women, I have not yet shown any ability to write a) Gamma or Omega characters or b) characters with average or lesser intelligence.

Just more challenges for the future, I suppose.


In years past, I thought you were arrogant. No you're just honest. And your humility, dedication, and pragmatism here is something to behold.

"I can't do something. I don't understand something."

That's humility, writ large. Not the first time you've displayed that quality, Vox.

Happy New Year to you and your minions!

Anonymous Peter B December 31, 2017 10:57 AM  

szopen wrote:Cataline Sergius wrote:You can't separate a book from it's author. The story came from somewhere. Their lives and experiences inform their creations.



... Moreover, while it's true that book must come from SOMEWHERE, when it's done, it's done. Your reception and interpretation of the book doesn't have to conform to what author had in mind. The Heinlein's "Starship Troopers" was not golorification of the fascist system - but yet I was told it was widely read that way, despite author supposedly complaining that public did not get it (heck, even today you can find summarising the book as "crypto-fascist"). The same thing about the movie adaptation: it's supposedly being a satire about fascism, yet most people just enjoy the movie.



Absolutely correct. Those who encounter a work of craft or art bring whoever and whatever they are to the encounter.

That said, MZB was not stupid, she was evil. She intended to normalize her neopagan, pansexual, incestuous, pedophilic ideology.

If some young women were able to derive solace from her books during difficult times and emerge whole, that is by the grace of G-d and not because MZB was sound and healthy.



SteelPalm wrote:@10 Cataline Sergius

I don't remember anything especially objectionable in "The Glory Road" with regards to sex. (In fact, the main character even notes his revulsion at having sex with "little brown sisters")


True, but to quote Glory Road directly,

"I did not object to little brown sisters because they were brown. I was as brown as they were, in my face, except for a long pink scar. I drew the line because they were little."

My 2¢ worth is that RAH got to be a big enough gorilla (in his own mind, anyway) that he could ignore his editors, though given the changing mores of the day, editors would probably have been helping to craft what sold. It's just that for juveniles in the 1950s and late '40s, the market demanded a more normal healthy story. I suppose it's also possible that his carotid artery disease resulted in small emboli and brain damage that affected his thinking, though that's complete speculation.

But don't forget Door Into Summer, in which his protagonist's time travel into the future drops him into a nudist colony, and of which the online encyclopedias say:

The early Heinlein biographer and critic Alexei Panshin, in his 1968 biography Heinlein in Dimension, took note of a controversial theme: "The romantic situation in this story is a very interesting, very odd one: it is nothing less than a mutual sexual interest between an engineer of thirty and a girl of twelve ('adorable' is Heinlein's word for her), that culminates in marriage after some hop-scotching around in time to adjust their ages a bit." The novel "worried and bothered" John W. Campbell, who said "Bob can write a better story, with one hand tied behind him, than most people in the field can do with both hands. But Jesus, I wish that son of a gun would take that other hand out of his pocket."

Blogger Gordon Scott December 31, 2017 11:02 AM  

A nit to pick RE: Heinlien

AFAICR, the idea of Deety mating with her father, in order to breed geniuses, was proposed. Deety's response was to strongly idicate that she didn't want that, without actually shouting "Ewwww, no!" Now someone else may have suggested that the key genes could be manipulated without intercourse, but it's been a while.

Blogger manfred arcane December 31, 2017 11:05 AM  

It is really worth noting that those ultra-libertine pagans, so loved by the likes of MZB, were very much a modern invention, starting with Renaissance. It is one of those things that people still take for granted and is regularly being used as an argument, but that has no basis in reality.

Blogger VD December 31, 2017 11:15 AM  

In years past, I thought you were arrogant. No you're just honest.

Those looking at a current snapshot in time where I express what they consider to be excessive confidence in my abilities are often unaware of a previous time when I had not developed them and readily admitted as much. The highest level of confidence in a skill or ability stems from the purposeful cultivation of it.

The naturally strong are not as confident in their strength as those who remember being weak.

Blogger Michael Maier December 31, 2017 11:40 AM  

"In years past, I thought you were arrogant. No you're just honest. "

It's funny how that works in real life / in person, too. People just aren't used to high levels of honesty. Esp if you're naturally quiet and modest.

Anonymous Philalethes December 31, 2017 11:43 AM  

Ellis Peters' (Edith Pargeter) excellent chronicles of Welsh monk (in English Shrewsbury Abbey) Brother Cadfael are also set against the background of The Anarchy, and were where I first read about it. Highly recommended.

It was truly a horrible, tragic time, with good men (and women) on both sides of the conflict. Actually, a better case could be made that it was Stephen who usurped the throne, as the late King Henry had made clear his wish that daughter Matilda would succeed him. But many Englishmen (actually at that time most of the nobility were still French-speaking Normans) balked at a female monarch, and so sided with Stephen despite his somewhat shady actions.

And Maude is certainly an interesting character, a classic study in female ego + incompetence. She actually had one big chance to win, but torpedoed it herself by her own arrogance and stupidity.

Btw, it's Sharon Kay Penman, and she's a fine writer; also produced an entertaining series of historical mysteries with a very interesting, nuanced portrait of the much-maligned King John (brother of and successor to the much revered Richard "Lion Heart", who was also a more complex character than usually portrayed).

Blogger Johnny Philosopher December 31, 2017 11:44 AM  

All feminists are ugly.

Blogger g wood December 31, 2017 11:44 AM  

Interesting that the original post mentioned "The Once and Future King". I loved that book, and the Disney movie, when I was a kid. It wasn't until just recently, when I read "H is for Hawk", that I learned T. H. White was a sadistic pedophile. Totally ruined my memories.

Anonymous Ghost Who Walks December 31, 2017 11:49 AM  

"Mists" is part of a loose series, is it not? Many enjoyed the made-for-TV video, "Mists of Avalon," but noticed the bad Ju-ju. Most were less impressed by the other books, including "The Forest House." The initial novel, "The Fall of Atlantis," is an almost unreadably plodding monstrosity that reveals the inner workings of MZB's inner self. However wicked her other manifestations were, authoring TFOA was equally noxious.

Anonymous Brick Hardslab December 31, 2017 12:00 PM  

Looking back on the childish and needy things Bradley said to her daughter while she was molesting her, Bradley's writing looks like Sailer's first law of female journalism.

Come the revolution, the authoress will be considered desirable and sexy. She was also projecting a nasty load of her paraphilas into the pages of her fantasy.

Combine that with starting the sca and she looks like a woman who wanted to create the world where dumpy, little, brunettes with questionable hygiene were beauties. Too bad she had to use her children as props in her make believe world.

Anonymous Lord of the Fleas December 31, 2017 12:03 PM  

OT, but I seem to recall that there was another post last night between this one and "Redefining Normal" now immediately below? What happened? Or am I hallucinating?

Anonymous Ghost Who Walks December 31, 2017 12:11 PM  

>Orwell was not so terribly old when he wrote that or when he died.

Right. "If you are not liberal at 20, you have no heart. If you are not conservative at 30, you have no brain. If you are not alt right by 40, you have not been paying attention!"

Anonymous Stickwick December 31, 2017 12:11 PM  

I had no concept of how destructive the bitter, bent, and socially rejected can be until I started reading this blog. When I started examining the history of feminism's most outspoken proponents, it was not really surprising to find that they are functionally insane, whether congenitally so or driven that way by trauma or social exclusion. All you have to do is look at photos of someone like Betty Friedan to understand why she was trying to rip apart the fabric of normal society.

Historically, how did pathologically unattractive people fit into Christian society? What is the best way to constrain the socially destructive potential of Gammas, Omegas, and plain little dark-haired women who feel they have no hope of normal relationships?

Blogger CM December 31, 2017 12:13 PM  

--This pedophilia discussion goes back to the fact that there is no set definition of "child". We lack criterion for mental and sexual maturity.
Funny thing is that cultures that are otherwise admired by the Right actually practiced what we would now define as pedophilia: Not only the elephant in the room that is Ancient Greece, but marriages and sexual relations between men and barely teenage girls in Medieval Europe, sexual relations between men and boys in Ancient China...--

I think diversity has facilitated this. Some cultures mature faster and die earlier.

Blogger The Observer December 31, 2017 12:16 PM  

Historically, how did pathologically unattractive people fit into Christian society? What is the best way to constrain the socially destructive potential of Gammas, Omegas, and plain little dark-haired women who feel they have no hope of normal relationships?

Men tended to end up dead or vagrants.

Women - well, "get thee to a nunnery" is a phrase for a reason, and that was a more palatable outcome.

Also note that there were fewer of those around, as the weak tended to die in infancy and childhood.

Blogger CM December 31, 2017 12:17 PM  

Historically, how did pathologically unattractive people fit into Christian society? What is the best way to constrain the socially destructive potential of Gammas, Omegas, and plain little dark-haired women who feel they have no hope of normal relationships?

Monasteries? Seems like they were excellent places for all sorts of people who were out of place in society, but these outcasts could find use for idle hands in spinning, weeding, tilling, shearing, carding...

So many idiotic mundane tasks to be accomplished in a self-sustaining monastery. With a solid hierarchy that Brooks no argument, they find a place and thrive.

Otherwise, I'd guess Darwin's law helped society quite a bit with lack of life-sustaining technology.

Blogger Cecil Henry December 31, 2017 12:21 PM  

Female Blindness: ITs really damaging. Nobody is laughing. NOT now, not later.

https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2017/12/29/someday-well-laugh/

Molyneux did a video on female voting recently: this pattern of naive acquiescence to big government as surrogate daddy is a BIG problem.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr December 31, 2017 12:31 PM  

@77: First, I think there were fewer of the pathologically unattractive. Clear roles and expectations for men and women existed. And the Church was always recruiting. You needn't be pretty to pray hard and do good works...and it didn't take tight Game to go on a Crusade.

Blogger VFM #7634 December 31, 2017 12:33 PM  

"the bitterness of a plain little dark-haired woman who cannot attract the handsome warriors and hates the tall pretty blonde girls who do"

VD may insist Gamma females don't exist, but that's the best summary of their theoretical mindset I've seen.

Anonymous Napoleon 12pdr December 31, 2017 12:39 PM  

@70: Yep. Henry I wanted Matilda to succeed him...but Stephen and half the English barons had other ideas. Matilda won the war, but STILL could not take the throne. Her son, Henry II, became King.

It makes an interesting comparison with France. Due to the Salic Law, a woman could not become a ruling Queen...but the French had no problems with a dowager Queen ruling as regent for her underaged son. The English never accepted this, despite the fact that a woman could theoretically inherit the throne.

It puts a whole different light on Henry VIII's actions. He wasn't trying to beget a son out of ego, but out of a desperate fear of plunging England into the Wars of the Roses, Round 3. Considering that his father won Round 2, that would definitely be on his mind.

Fortunately for England, nobody else was up for Round 3, either...and the Tudors had taken out most of the plausible claimants.

Anonymous Victor F. Michaelson December 31, 2017 12:40 PM  

but the main difference between this is normalizing homosexuals is that no one really cared about homosexuals that much.
Stop and think how many homosexuals were molested & broken as children. You may not care about the adult, but what of the vulnerable child? As Moira points out, the historical model of homosexuality preys on children and this trait still exists today and has been institutionalized in NAMBLA.

Anonymous Stickwick December 31, 2017 12:52 PM  

CM: ...but these outcasts could find use for idle hands in spinning, weeding, tilling, shearing, carding...

This brings to mind that we have been experiencing a period of extraordinary peace and ease, and that life is normally much more difficult.

Just spitballing here, but there were perhaps many ways in which traditional societies existing in harsher times reined in societally destructive behaviors:

- When you have to work hard to survive and depend on your community for survival, you are less apt to try to destroy the social fabric of the community.

- Men and women married younger than they do now and to people who were closely matched to them in the socio-sexual hierarchy. My guess is that prolonged singleness creates unrealistic aspirations in terms of what kind of partner one can get, with subsequent anguish and bitterness when those aspirations meet reality.

- Children were more likely to grow up with close family members instead of in artificial environments like modern schools. Family-centered childhood probably created fewer opportunities for personal anguish than modern school-centered childhood.

- The existence of socially acceptable roles for social outcasts, e.g. within the church.

Not that any of this would've changed human nature and eradicated envy and bitterness, but it probably created fewer opportunities for them to flourish into full-scale societally-destructive movements.

Blogger S1AL December 31, 2017 12:57 PM  

"VD may insist Gamma females don't exist, but that's the best summary of their theoretical mindset I've seen."

This is closer to the omega mindset than gamma. The funny thing is that the female counterpart to the gamma is far less likely to engage in self-deception, because of the overwhelming reality of lacking the looks.

Anonymous Loppppp December 31, 2017 1:24 PM  

A discussion on the scene from Mists of Avalon:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1670558-why-is-child-rape-explained-as-something-natural-in-this-book

Blogger Dire Badger December 31, 2017 1:30 PM  

So, shall we talk about the psychopathic Piers Anthony, and his twisted books "Talisman" and "Firefly"?

Anonymous BBGKB December 31, 2017 1:52 PM  

in your opinion how likely is it that the SJWs will eventually wage an all-out campaign to normalize pedophilia?

By all out campaign what more do you think they would have to do to count as all out campaign? Have Supreme court justice (((Ginsberg))) say age of consent should be 12? Import tons of 3rdworlders who bang 10yos? Have both Clintons take trips to Epstein island? Tranny coloring books with Santa in them? (((Fake-News))) not covering that the FACE of NC tranny bathrooms was a convicted child sex offender?

VD- I have not yet shown any ability to write a) Gamma or Omega characters or b) characters with average or lesser intelligence.

I am pretty sure I have meet your gay goblin frog catcher in New Orleans.

Blogger VFM #7634 December 31, 2017 2:19 PM  

"This is closer to the omega mindset than gamma. The funny thing is that the female counterpart to the gamma is far less likely to engage in self-deception, because of the overwhelming reality of lacking the looks."

@87 S1AL
Perhaps. But, considering all the fat broads running around who actually seem to believe they're beautiful and who are otherwise completely full of themselves, I'm not so sure. I suppose we could consider the egotistical body-positive slutty fat chicks the gammas and those who've truly given up the omegas.

Blogger S1AL December 31, 2017 2:24 PM  

"But, considering all the fat broads running around who actually seem to believe they're beautiful and who are otherwise completely full of themselves, I'm not so sure."

The difference is that they're lying to everyone else, not themselves. Women who believe/know don't have to say it.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella December 31, 2017 2:39 PM  

Well, there were small, dark-haired men to marry. With heirarchies, and nearly mutually incomprehensible languages and accents, the dark-haired girl didn't have a shot at the Norman beast-master of the big house.

America,the founding families in the Northeast had 8-12 kids or more, each, all sort of related to cousins with equally abundant families. They weren't looking to swarthy, short, immigrant interlopers to marry. It wasn't even trying- wouldn't you rather marry someone familiar, and fun from childhood habits- cotillion, skating, private schools, church? Rather than city, synagogue, down-market college?

I mean, Sheryl Sandberg has the guy you date- the guy on the motorcycle who is sexy, short-sighted (think short, dark, swarthy, immigrant-descended) vs the guy you marry, who has long-term thinking, beta levels of devotion, likely stereotypically blonde---with the joke that Sheryl Sandberg is an immensely wealthy short, dark, immigrant.

And, tribalism: Christian tribes tended to be Gothic, Frankish, Visigothic, while slave-traders tended to be Jewish villagers- short, swarthy, inbred, foreign, ill-mannered, smelly. All those stories about Thumbelina and the mole king? His mother ran his life, almost like his name is Portnoy. They've done this great erasure- slave traders from the fall of Rome, onward, were Jewish. They were hostile to the people they lived among. They didn't seem to get the children they stole pregnant, either. They just shipped them onward to the Mideast.

Also, frankly, gays and trannies are on a clock. The minute one disease spreads from them to a helpless child w/ cancer, we'll set up disposal units in hospitals, to kill them off. It'll be a lefty compassionate thing, not a right-ward thing. Single moms with one precious child, and single mom nurses and orderlies carrying it out, with full pursed lips "how could you be against the safety of children?"

Right now, it's right-wing men, who are the least homicidal, least vengeful group of people in history. Most noble, most long-suffering, most invested in everyone reaching their full potential, most compassionate.

Blogger Ariadne Umbrella December 31, 2017 2:40 PM  

Well, there were small, dark-haired men to marry. With heirarchies, and nearly mutually incomprehensible languages and accents, the dark-haired girl didn't have a shot at the Norman beast-master of the big house.

America,the founding families in the Northeast had 8-12 kids or more, each, all sort of related to cousins with equally abundant families. They weren't looking to swarthy, short, immigrant interlopers to marry. It wasn't even trying- wouldn't you rather marry someone familiar, and fun from childhood habits- cotillion, skating, private schools, church? Rather than city, synagogue, down-market college?

I mean, Sheryl Sandberg has the guy you date- the guy on the motorcycle who is sexy, short-sighted (think short, dark, swarthy, immigrant-descended) vs the guy you marry, who has long-term thinking, beta levels of devotion, likely stereotypically blonde---with the joke that Sheryl Sandberg is an immensely wealthy short, dark, immigrant.

And, tribalism: Christian tribes tended to be Gothic, Frankish, Visigothic, while slave-traders tended to be Jewish villagers- short, swarthy, inbred, foreign, ill-mannered, smelly. All those stories about Thumbelina and the mole king? His mother ran his life, almost like his name is Portnoy. They've done this great erasure- slave traders from the fall of Rome, onward, were Jewish. They were hostile to the people they lived among. They didn't seem to get the children they stole pregnant, either. They just shipped them onward to the Mideast.

Also, frankly, gays and trannies are on a clock. The minute one disease spreads from them to a helpless child w/ cancer, we'll set up disposal units in hospitals, to kill them off. It'll be a lefty compassionate thing, not a right-ward thing. Single moms with one precious child, and single mom nurses and orderlies carrying it out, with full pursed lips "how could you be against the safety of children?"

Right now, it's right-wing men, who are the least homicidal, least vengeful group of people in history. Most noble, most long-suffering, most invested in everyone reaching their full potential, most compassionate.

Anonymous Jack Amok December 31, 2017 2:43 PM  

And Maude is certainly an interesting character, a classic study in female ego + incompetence.

A more-or-less predictable consequence of crowning* a 14 year old girl Holy Roman Empress and leaving her in charge of Italy. Henry V HRE was a bit of a moron.

* in her mind she was certainly that, though others dispute it, considering the coronation was done by some random flunky, the Pope being somewhat indisposed fleeing for his life after excommunicating Henry V and then having Henry bring an army to Rome...

Anonymous Jack Amok December 31, 2017 2:53 PM  

Incest et al. We need to defend the Hajnal Line.

Blogger The Overgrown Hobbit December 31, 2017 2:55 PM  

the bitterness of a plain little dark-haired woman who cannot attract the handsome warriors and hates the tall pretty blonde girls who do.

Having read The Last Closet, Vox Day, while capturing Mists's broader appeal to normal if plain young women, seems to have missed its source in the writer.

If the biographical heresey is actually canon here, MZB as the smart ugly proto-lesbian, has finally found her Lancelot in Breen, only to be forever denied a sexual relationship with him because she can never be a pretty, helpless child.

and then Gwenhwyfar, blonde and fair and lithe and helpless, stumbles into Avalon

Ugh.

Anonymous Vox Detractor December 31, 2017 3:10 PM  

"The pathology of Marion Zimmer Bradley is more horrific. A victim of brutal incestuous rape who passed on the crimes of her father upon her daughter."

So kind of Jason Yungbluth to attack the pathological roots of queer culture by illustrating the Marion Zimmer Bradley origin story for us.

Anonymous CPEG December 31, 2017 3:23 PM  

How old was the girl in the "fertility ritual?" Barely pubescent?

Moira was 6 when MZB let the "pagan pope" rape her.

Radicals try to push the envelope a litle at a time; what they want you to accept, what they do, is worse than their propaganda lets on.

Anonymous Brick Hardslab December 31, 2017 3:27 PM  

Guys who looked like Ernest Borgnine used to get a job get married raise kids. Look at any old picture of factory, miners or farm workers, not a lot of Cary Grants but they lived normal lives.

Now it's mom's basement and weird gamma rage. Sexual dysfunction all the way down.

Anonymous Anonymous December 31, 2017 3:35 PM  

She had not much influence on the SCA as an organization , though she did come up with the name, when she was reserving space in a park for an event and the park wanted a name.
The SCA is, in general, a family friendly organization, though, as with any open membership volunteer organization, there are local group personality differences.
The SCA has strong policies in place for the protection of children, but, as always, the best protection for your children is actice, caring, parental attention.
I have been active in the SCA at various levels of involvment for 30 years and have found many friends there.
Take a look at your local group, and see if you like them.
John in Indy

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( the Original Militant Apathist ) December 31, 2017 3:59 PM  

10. Cataline Sergius December 31, 2017 7:04 AM
Besides, he was born in 1907 in Montana



Butler Missouri, but yes.

he has an early short story about an infant who can talk to the barnyard animals which displays an in-depth knowledge of manual labor intensive, early 20th technology and animal husbandry.


35. SteelPalm December 31, 2017 8:52 AM
as Stalin's crimes came to light in the West, he may have repudiated the version of socialism he idealized.



it's Marx who demands the Genocide of the Bourgeois.

to repudiate Lenin and Stalin for attempting to ... Genocide the Bourgeois ... demonstrates gross incompetence about the basics of the ideology to which he supposedly adheres.

OpenID leukosfash December 31, 2017 4:02 PM  

szopen, Re:Orwell. I'm guessing you're not a Christian. Reading Orwell as a Christian, I can hear his leftism shrieking from nearly every page. Atheism is not normal, and Blair's is evidence of social Marxist indoctrination against religion and God (my guess would be while at Eton).

Anonymous LurkingPuppy December 31, 2017 4:04 PM  

Napoleon 12pdr wrote:Amy: IIRC, Jerry Pournelle was also involved in the SCA in its early years. It's not all bad.
He was also involved in SFWA, which is now a pro-pedo cesspool. Make your decisions about a group based on its current membership. If you are a good person, you will naturally be inclined to distrust and avoid evil people; trust that feeling.

Blogger SteelPalm December 31, 2017 4:28 PM  

@40 Cataline Sergius

Job A Comedy of Justice: Whats-her-name encourages her husband to bang their daughter.

I've read the book only a few years ago; I don't recall this scene at all.


I will grant you is that you might have read an earlier edition of Glory Road. The Baen reprint has a scene where a mother and her two under age daughters one of them thirteen offers a four-way with Oscar.


Ah, right you are. I remember this now. The main character declines her offer, though.

As far as Heinlein maybe not knowing. Bullshit. Read up on it. Everybody and by that I mean every swinging dick in the con circuit knew about Walter Breen. There is no way in Hell that Heinlein could have been ignorant.

I've read the posts on your blog. Heinlein was probably aware of some murmurings about Breen, but I doubt he was fully aware of what he was doing, or had ever personally witnessed them.

Maybe he had, and was overlooking them, sure. But there isn't evidence of this.

I will admit, however, that I haven't read some of the later Heinleins that you mention. Still, in situations murkier than those of Clarke, Delaney, etc. I prefer not to make definite judgments either way. He also never DID anything of the sort, which sets him apart from the aforementioned degenerates.

Blogger Retrenched December 31, 2017 4:28 PM  

It's important to note: This is not a bitter screed. Moira Greyland's writing is clear, matter-of-fact and witty.

Not only that, but she also goes out of her way to give her parents credit for the few times they showed any kindness to her at all, like when Walter nursed her back to health when she was ill or when her mother started spending lots of money on Moira and Patrick after her career took off.

Anonymous Avalanche December 31, 2017 4:57 PM  

@68 Vox: The highest level of confidence in a skill or ability stems from the purposeful cultivation of it.

It's ain't braggin' if'n it's true.

Blogger tublecane December 31, 2017 5:03 PM  

@41-"is not the 'bitterness' you describe as the/a source for feminism the same bitterness of the nerds about the jocks getting the cheerleaders"

It's similar, which is why Vox brought up Revenge of the Nerds in the OP. However, there is no Nerds Rights Movement.* Loser males go in for all sorts of anti-civilizational things, for instance communism and SJW-ism. But they don't seek to overthrow society as it is constituted because they can't get laid. Women do because they can't land the better sort of men. It's one of the differences

*Don't even mention Men's Rights "movement."

"I...STILL had my little girl's heart broken, as what girl...does not, by the handsome warrior preferring some other girl"

Most people will have their hearts broken at some point in time. Having it happen once or several times isn't the same as having it happen always. But even if you've never known anything but heartbreak, you don't necessarily become a feminist. You could become a nun or a spinster.

Point is, some perpetually-rejected women turn to feminism. Because they'd rather overturn the world so that pettiness grace, innocence, or whatever she lacks isn't any bar to love or companionship or sex. Which doesn't mean that a lack of success with men determines whether a woman becomes a feminist. But it certainly is one of the most important factors.

Could be the same defect in some women that turns off men makes her susceptible to feminism as the answer. I don't know. But it's not the same with men. Being losers all their lives I'm sure has a lot to do with being a radical. It's often a case of, "I'll show you for underestimating me!" or "I'll show you for not respecting me!" or "I'll show you for passing me over for that job!"

"I'll show you for not loving me!"/"I'll show you for not letting me have sex with you!" are contributing factors. But men are not defined by that to the extent women are. The way men are built, they're less social, more comfortable being alone, if they have to be. Part of what it means to be make is to have to go out in the world and prove yourself. Which involves for a lot of people doing a bunch of stuff, throwing things against the wall and seeing what sticks. There's a lag, then, between the effort and the reward.

With women, the other sex does the pursuing. And if you're not being pursued, you know your value right there. Unless you're locked away in a tower, or something.

Anonymous Avalanche December 31, 2017 5:06 PM  

@77 "When I started examining the history of feminism's most outspoken proponents, it was not really surprising to find that they are functionally insane, whether congenitally so or driven that way by trauma or social exclusion."

Or by self-choice!!

I remember reading -- with a combination of compassion (for idiocy) and contempt (for flaming idiocy!) -- the auto-bio of ... oh, (((who))) was it started MS magazine with the CIA? She writes of starting (in her late 50's I think it was?) to date some hugely rich bigwig in NYC, and how WELL he treated her, and how he would even send his limo to pick her up at the airport when she flew home from some feminist something... and how warm and loved she felt, and how ... relaxing it was to have someone take care of her!

AND SO SHE QUIT DATING HIM!!!

She made the conscious choice to STOP dating a man who provided, protected, and cherished -- because She was losing her resistance and resentment and her anger at men and ...oh! she could NOT have that!! (What a brain-damaged FOOL!)

Blogger tublecane December 31, 2017 5:06 PM  

@106-I should say men don't seek to upturn the social order simply because they can't get laid. Though that may be a contributing factor. But so is not being able to find work, not being respected, having no ties to the community, being picked last for tee-ball, etc.

Women may not seek to upturn society for no other reason that that boys don't chase them around. But it has much more weight with them.

Anonymous Philalethes December 31, 2017 5:27 PM  

Heinlein was probably aware of some murmurings about Breen, but I doubt he was fully aware of what he was doing, or had ever personally witnessed them.

Heinlein may have been involved in the fandom of the 1940s, but certainly by the early 60s he had no use for fans — except, of course, their money and accolades, as when he was GoH at the Seattle Worldcon in 1961 (and I got to shake his hand – his juveniles were a major influence in my youth, from when I first discovered science fiction with Rocket Ship Galileo in 1955).

I consider it certain Heinlein "had never personally witnessed" any of Breen's activities, and unlikely he had ever even seen Breen in person. I believe Breen was at Seattle (I had met him the previous year at the Pittsburgh Worldcon, and of course previously in fanzines — there was no Internet then), but that was before he and Bradley got together. Nor would Heinlein have been "fully aware" of what Breen was up to; nobody in fandom — much less the pro community, which Breen was not part of — was then. I don't know if even Donaho knew Breen had been in trouble over this stuff in the 1950s, before he became involved in SF fandom.

I read Heinlein's letter to Bradley mostly as an expression of support for a fellow Professional being harassed by those pesky, contemptible lowlife fans. He probably didn't believe what he'd heard simply because it was from fans, for whom he had no use. Heinlein wrote some good stuff, but as some have noted, his best was when he had to pay attention to editors who wouldn't put up with some of the wilder garbage that I expect was always in his mind but he couldn't write about until he was popular enough to kiss off those who would restrain him.

Blogger Thucydides December 31, 2017 5:29 PM  

Let us all hope that next year, we can all with each other a Happy New Year without having to discuss perversions and damaged people at the same time.....

Blogger Snidely Whiplash December 31, 2017 6:05 PM  

Philalethes wrote:I consider it certain Heinlein "had never personally witnessed" any of Breen's activities, and unlikely he had ever even seen Breen in person.
Based on ... what exactly? you respect for him and the effect he had on you as a writer for young people? Many people had the ssame respect for MZB, for her similar effect on them. The clean-cut and obviously non-perverse slant of his wrtings? The fact that he utterly rejected pedophilia?

There's simply no basis to make your assertion. Certainly by the time it became an issue involving banning Breeen from cons, Heinlein had to have known the substance of the accusations. And reading the letter, it's full of code words used by pedophiles about normies.
I have no evidence that Heinlein was a pedophile, but his writing gives plenty of evidence that he thought about it, rather a lot, and though it was perfectly normal.

Anonymous Mr. Rational December 31, 2017 7:22 PM  

I've never read the book so I don't know anything beyond that excerpt, but the description of the little girl sounds like she's pre-pubescent.

What is a pre-pubescent doing as a sexual participant in a fertility ritual?  That rings alarm bells.  MZB was definitely pushing pedo there, as she pushed lesbianism elsewhere.

CPEG wrote:Moira was 6 when MZB let the "pagan pope" rape her.
Sounds awfully similar, doesn't it?  The little blue girl was a stand-in for Moira, more likely than not.

Anonymous Post Alley Crackpot December 31, 2017 7:46 PM  

"... I would say there is about a 65 percent probability that they will. Their initial forays have not been well-received ..."

The rezidents have to have a rezidentsiya in order to do their work, and sci-fi has long provided adequate cover and concealment for these "Illegals" who use so-called "progressivism" to hide their illegal lifestyles.

They do not merely want to come "out of the closet", but to be fully accepted members of the community despite doing things that most people rightly view as vile and evil. That's why they attempt to "sell the lifestyle" to people covertly, hoping that they'll become apologists and provide further apologetics for it.

I'm not certain whether this is hubris or outright insanity.

They want acceptance, but they're not going to get it, and they'll fail to achieve tolerance because most people won't tolerate what they wish for.

A relatively simple needs of the many versus needs of the few calculation sorts out the required outcome for most people.

Anonymous Markle Farkle December 31, 2017 8:27 PM  

@85
Homosexuality is learned behavior and it was never a secret. See also, "jailhouse gay." "Ten percent is not enough! Recruit, recruit, recruit!" "Eight is too late!"

@93
You're kidding, right? Homos have been giving AIDS-tainted blood in blood drives going back to the Ford Administration, and more than a few photogenic little hemophiliac kids died of AIDS because of it, back in the 80s. All that happened was some harrumph-harrumphing and new rules on testing donated blood for diseases, plus some feel-good laws passed to protect AIDS carriers from "discrimination." The homos didn't just kill those kids with tainted blood, they used them as the public face of a campaign to give themselves more "civil rights" that can't be found in the Constitution unless the right (((judge))) is reading it.

@99
Well, yes. They can't help themselves. SJWs are convinced of their own rightness and of the justice of their cause. They CAN'T leave the rest of us alone. They CAN'T accept the idea of a temporary truce. They can't NOT push. Silent assent isn't enough. They are compelled to smash everything, destroy Western culture top to bottom, and they want to hold the normies at gunpoint and force them to recite their slogans. White people in the West have too much social capital, and it's their mission to destroy that social capital. They apologize for and try to normalize everything disgusting and evil, from drug addiction to every kind of deviant sexuality, and want to tear down all "cultural hegemony," which is to say, everything that is normal and sane. They are pushing hard right now to normalize pedophilia, incest, and zoophilia, though that latter one we're hearing about mainly from Europe. Necrophilia will presumably be the next one, if a society so "tolerant" as to allow pedophilia and transsexualism can endure long enough for the next big media/entertainment push to reach completion. Twenty years ago Nero and Caligula would have taken one look at us and puked. What kind of society are the SJWs going to warp us into in another twenty years?

@111
It's been a while since I read The Golden Bough, but does anyone know of any real-world primitive culture that had a fertility ritual revolving around the rape of a prepubescent, i.e., not old enough to be fertile, girl? It would be repugnant enough if MZB had borrowed from the real world, but given what is known of her inclinations and proclivities, I suspect that this was yet another of her sexual fantasies.

Blogger SteelPalm December 31, 2017 8:49 PM  

@110 Snidely Whiplash

Based on ... what exactly? you respect for him and the effect he had on you as a writer for young people?

No, based on Heinlein not attending fan conventions or being personally acquainted with Breen, as was clearly stated in Philalethes's post you quoted.

I'm not as knowledgeable about fandom then as he is (I wouldn't be born yet for a few decades), but it makes sense, as Heinlein was a notable recluse as his health worsened, and was at odds with conventions and the SFWA alike.

If you wish to argue there was support in Heinlein's works (have you read them? Or just going by Cataline's posts?) for pedophilia that's one thing, but completely ignoring Phila's reply is dishonest, and your defacto assumption that Heinlein knew is silly.

Lastly, whether he had abhorrent beliefs or not, comparing MZB's influence with Heinlein's is insulting.

Heinlein was an inspiration for good science fiction writers as well as right-wingers. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is one of the greatest right-wing books ever, and others, like Paul Kersey of Stuff Black People Don't Like, cite "Starship Troopers" as their favorite book that informs so much of their beliefs about society.

By contrast, MZB inspired a bunch of shrill, idiotic harpy cunts who have contributed nothing worthwhile to Western culture.

Anonymous Mr. Rational December 31, 2017 10:39 PM  

@113  It wasn't a fantasy, it was MZB's reality and Moira's personal nightmare.

Anonymous CPEG December 31, 2017 11:34 PM  

I think "the fertilizing blood" means at least the fictional girl was pubescent, for what it's worth.

Anonymous AB.Prosper January 01, 2018 1:12 AM  

SteelPalm


Heinlein was clearly "left" on sexual matters and gender in his work. Strong Female was a staple



he was also Leftist on race matters as well though he might qualify as "mainstream conservative" on the latter if you consider civic nationalism a "right" proposition.

At one point he favored Social Credit too though this is neither a Left or Right proposition

There are exceptions Farnham's Freehold is filled with black cannibal gangs and worse and of course Starship Troopers is the greatest authoritarian Right SF novel ever written

The Moon is Harsh Mistress is a Libertarian thing not Right . Libertarianism is chaos tempered by a corporate state and as such a thing of the Corporate state and the Left

Another example the bizarre sexual customs of the protagonist's allies in Glory Road

John C. Wright on the topic

http://www.scifiwright.com/2017/11/fooled-by-heinlein-for-forty-years/

and of course Stranger in a Strange Land

On top of this Door into Summer has a gifted 11 year old girl in love with an adult male . Its resolved in an ethical and moral manner in the book but R.A.H is my book is highly suspect on that theme alone . Note "gifted" almost like an adult. This isn't Piers Anthony level creepy but its too close to the same turf

Mostly he was a creature of the Patriotic Left-Libertarians an extinct breed these days tolerable because he was a Patriot but in reality a man of the other side despite Starship Troopers not one of us

Anonymous Wooly New Year! January 01, 2018 1:35 AM  

@89

Was wondering when someone was going to bring up Firefly by Piers. I hope Guantanemo has space for more than just the Podestas, Clintons, and Obamas.

Blogger SteelPalm January 01, 2018 2:16 AM  

@117 AB Prosper

Libertarian or not (and myself, Vox, and many other members here started out as small l libertarians), The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a huge indictment on socialism and big government regulations.

Also, after portraying government as a positive in earlier works like The Door Into Summer, Starship Troopers, Starman Jones, Podkayne of Mars, etc, etc. Heinlein depicted government as the greatest evil and impediment to individual liberty in his later works. There was a huge shift from hardcore leftist/borderline socialist into hardcore right-winger and individualist.

Yes, he had very loose/leftist sexual mores, as I noted, and he liked a certain type of spirited female protagonist, but neither of those is leftist and in and of itself.

Anonymous AB.Prosper January 01, 2018 3:29 AM  

SteelPalm wrote:Libertarian or not (and myself, Vox, and many other members here started out as small l libertarians), The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a huge indictment on socialism and big government regulations.

I can see your point there SP. I'm not that kind of Right Winger though , I'm socially middle conservative / economically nationalist not a libertarian. I've spent plenty of in Libertarian circles, read most of the works. It was and is always will be in my mind one of the stupidest systems ever conceived.

Since this is a Western civilization blog, I'll note that most of the time in which the West was well the West, people had kings and economic roles were more or less determined at birth. we don't want to go back to that, probably but Economic Liberalism has nothing to do with the West or Conservatism. we may be anti Communist but that does not imply either Capitalism or Economic Liberalism are mandated.

As Liberty Prime might say "Communism is a lie" and the .alt Right working to be as truth based as possible must eschew lies

To what so many of the Right want, the Founding Father ideal agrarian minarchy rightly died with the industrial age

No matter what we want, we will have a lot more State . Technology mandates it The trick is knowing how to contain it and use it wisely to our ends,

Blogger Snidely Whiplash January 01, 2018 4:46 AM  

Lastly, whether he had abhorrent beliefs or not, comparing MZB's influence with Heinlein's is insulting.
You will note, of course, that your response doesn't address the issue. Heinlein was a vigorous proponent of every form of degeneracy and perversity.

Heinlein was an inspiration for good science fiction writers as well as right-wingers. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is one of the greatest right-wing books ever, and others, like Paul Kersey of Stuff Black People Don't Like, cite "Starship Troopers" as their favorite book that informs so much of their beliefs about society.
I'll state it clearly. Heinlein was a Leftie. I realize he is a favorite of the Libertarians and the misguided souls who worship the military, but Heinlein was, in every way, from his earliest wrtitings to his death, a leftie. Read Stranger In A Strange Land and tell me again how much other slightly-less-left-than-Hillary commentators, excuse me, Rightists, love him.

Blogger SteelPalm January 01, 2018 5:56 AM  

@121 Snidely Whiplash

It's amazing how you ignore everything written in response to you, despite quoting it, and repeat the same silly slogan over and over. I can't tell whether it's ignorance or dishonesty.

For the umpteenth time, Heinlein was a leftist, even socialist from the beginning of his career until the early 1960s, ending with "Stranger in a Strange Land". (A book beloved and celebrated by leftists) Soon after, he made a drastic change in his politics, going from celebrating the government to decrying it as the greatest enemy of freedom and progress.

Read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" (a book those same leftists despise), "Friday", or even "The Glory Road" and tell me again he was a "leftie".

I'll give Cataline and AB Prosper credit; we might disagree on Heinlein's exact views or influence, but they have clearly read a number of his works. Judging by your comments, I'm guessing you've read "Stranger in a Strange Land" and literally nothing else.

Also, this is the first time I have heard Paul Kersey referred to as a libertarian or someone who loves the military.

Blogger Akulkis January 01, 2018 7:59 AM  

@107

(((Gloria Steinham)))

Blogger CM January 01, 2018 9:36 AM  

To what so many of the Right want, the Founding Father ideal agrarian minarchy rightly died with the industrial age

Hmmmm... I've been toying with this a bit lately. GOP conservatives don't know why the split in urban/rural big vs little government.

I keep pointing out needs are different and we need to address that, but started a theory - specialization drives big government because you rely more on others to meet basic "needs". Industialization and urban centers are specialized and rural, agrarian societies require more self-sustenance to meet basic needs.

I wonder if it can expand to countries - country specialization in markets and trade facilitates the approach to one-world government.

Blogger Snidely Whiplash January 01, 2018 11:30 AM  

@Steel Palm,
What would Heinlein's stace be on homosexuality? Gay marriage? Trannies? Religion? Race?
The preservation of Western Civilization?
The man was a Left Libertarian. It's simply undeniable. That he is admired by some people counted as "right" is immaterial. So is Trotsky.

Anonymous AB.Prosper January 01, 2018 3:39 PM  

CM wrote:I keep pointing out needs are different and we need to address that, but started a theory - specialization drives big government because you rely more on others to meet basic "needs". Industialization and urban centers are specialized and rural, agrarian societies require more self-sustenance to meet basic needs.

Frigging Karl Marx figured out at least the edges of the idea, the term he used was alienation from the means of production but the core idea is there, lack of self sufficiency breeds more government.

Virtually none of us can grow our own food and make all our own clothes.

Also technology itself often necessitates more government, some needed defenses are too difficult or expensive or unsafe in private hands.

Private artillery was fine and dandy in 1780 but can anyone trust the neighbors with a 155mm artillery piece or small nukes or for that matter a home germ warfare lab for "militia purposes"

In the strictest sense its what the Constitution requires but no matter what Libertarians think, its ridiculous.

Private firearms comparable to infantry weapons are one thing, I favor no real gun laws or bullet laws for anyone not in jail basically but even in a stable homogeneous society my neighbors cannot be trusted with destructive weapons.

I can be persuaded to allow grenades or the like but a lot of weapons that were expected to be owned privately need control these days.

Also the original society was built at a time in which cultural drift do to people moving was really not a huge thing, while cultures did shift, the biggest shift was to a mostly empty land out West . even that caused tremendous problems

After the 30's with the Okies certainly after the 70's this stability of culture changed. These days people commonly shift states, jobs and other things at a fast pace. I can be born in New Jersey, live in say Arizona , move to Washington and than to New Hampshire and its not unusual

What would be odd is me living , working, having a family in one small town.


Even if the US were to close it borders and mass repatriate millions, local cultures will get homogenized and there is little that can be done about this.

Its quite easy for people from California to show in Colorado and wreck the state which they did and even restricting the franchise after moving via constitutional amendment only slows the homogenization

Functionally either the US splits or the Right becomes somewhat dictatorial and forces local cultures into its value sphere

Libertarian ideals simply hand the game to the Left . We might get a less coercive Left state out of it but business can be even more coercive,

In the end its separation with closed borders or its our boots on their necks or their necks on ours. The "militia right" and the other others are going to have to understand this or they are going to essentially be unwitting allies of the Left

Blogger SteelPalm January 01, 2018 4:10 PM  

@125 SnidelyWhiplash

@Steel Palm,
What would Heinlein's stace be on homosexuality? Gay marriage? Trannies? Religion? Race?
The preservation of Western Civilization?


If you have read more of his work than "Stranger in a Strange Land", you should be able to answer some of this, no?

Nothing as idiotic as trannies or gay marriage was around in Heinlein's time, and never factors in any of his books. Hell, there wasn't even a single gay character in Heinlein's books, either, so I don't know his stance on that.

As for Western civilization, he was firmly in the civic nationalist mold. He believed those of a different race could ascribe to the ideals of a nation and be good citizens.

However, he also spoke out against the evils of multiculturalism and a divided society. From "Friday";

“It is a bad sign when the people of a country stop identifying themselves with the country and start identifying with a group. A racial group. Or a religion. Or a language. Anything, as long as it isn't the whole population.”

Yeah, the civic nationalist mindset was naive knowing what we do now, but how many were EVEN that far along by the 70s?

Blogger Snidely Whiplash January 01, 2018 4:26 PM  

SteelPalm wrote:Nothing as idiotic as trannies or gay marriage was around in Heinlein's time, and never factors in any of his books.
Nice dodge that fails to actually address the question. You an I both know what the answer is
Hell, there wasn't even a single gay character in Heinlein's books, either, so I don't know his stance on that.
Absolutely false on both counts.

Anonymous AB.Prosper January 01, 2018 4:48 PM  

SteelPalm wrote:Yeah, the civic nationalist mindset was naive knowing what we do now, but how many were EVEN that far along by the 70s?

Civic nationalism was the default in that period among sane Left and the Right as well. It wasn't terribly unusual as a view even with the troubles the nation was having

Also Heinlein was quite modern on his ideas about gays

This quote is from the Heinlein Society and in his own words

http://www.heinleinsociety.org/2013/02/faq-frequently-asked-questions-about-robert-a-heinlein-the-person-2/

But I haven't the slightest emotional or intellectual prejudice against homo play... and if I do find myself sexually attracted to a man and he to me I won't resist the impulse: I'll simply try not to get caught

So on those grounds he wasn't even close to the Right moral spectrum but a creature of the Left. And while there were fictional examples otherwise, generally he was Left on race and gender matters as well.

He was certainly a civic nationalist and a patriot but one can be Left Libertarian or Liberal and hold such views even now.

Religiously he was a deist that probably believed in reincarnation, so not a Christian either

Doesn't mean Starship Troopers wasn't a great book or that his others works, and I've read a lot of him weren't good reads, only that he was not a Right winger except for a brief period.

Also, even with the bit in Door into Summer does not mean he knew of or approved or pedophilia either or with an excessively low age of consent . There is zero evidence of that


Anonymous Mr. Rational January 01, 2018 5:03 PM  

SteelPalm wrote:Nothing as idiotic as trannies or gay marriage was around in Heinlein's time, and never factors in any of his books.
IIRC, Andrew Jackson Libby turns out to be XXY and decides to be female instead.

AB.Prosper wrote:even with the bit in Door into Summer does not mean he knew of or approved or pedophilia either or with an excessively low age of consent . There is zero evidence of that
This is true, there is no hint of sex play and the "get married someday" thing is treated as more of a joke... except the girl-turned-woman decides she wants to make it real at the end.  As an adult.  Which is fine.  It's just one of the twists that comes with time travel.

Blogger flyingtiger January 01, 2018 6:26 PM  

I expect the homos to make a push for pedophilia. They need new faces. There are two ways to do this.
1) Adult incest.This can be portrayed as romantic. While presently illegal, it is effectively decriminalized. The police are not looking for adults who do this.
2) The new people. Europe and the USA are being flooded by foreigners. The labor market is saturated, so what are they here for. They come from cultures where the AOC is lower and acceptable. First it will be decriminalized. Then the representative from Minnesota, who was born in Somalia, will introduce a bill to lower the AOC. If you oppose this, you will be shouted down as a racist.
Ironically, the barrier is the new Puritanism. It is hard to discuss legalization of pedophilia with the Kevin Spacy scandal in every bodies minds.

Blogger Harry Spitz January 01, 2018 7:36 PM  

So was Poul Anderson. Apparently, he fought his way to Kingship several times.
The SCA is a great organization and I wish I had spent more time in it.

Anonymous GodEmperorMemes January 02, 2018 2:24 AM  

As Milo Yiannopoulos says: "There are two genders; male, and disabled".

Anonymous MaMu77 January 02, 2018 11:55 AM  

Ritual homosexual pederasty is a New Guinean practice (Pacific Islander), not African.
That being said, there were and still are plenty of sub-saharan subcultures that practice "incentivising" heterosexual hebephilia (get the boys sexually active at the start of puberty, then pull a Laban. As a younger African workmate once admitted to me, "If it wasn't for my smartphone, I'd be slaving for the right to marry some idiot's daughter in Cameroon.")

Blogger SteelPalm January 02, 2018 8:33 PM  

@128 Snidely Whiplash

Absolutely false on both counts.

And yet, despite being "false", you fail to provide a counterexample. How telling. It's so easy, too! You just have to write a single name from a single book.

Thanks for proving yet again that you're talking out of your ass, despite your strident certainty.

@129 AB Prosper

I assume the bit about homos was from an interview/speech?

Anonymous AB.Prosper January 03, 2018 1:45 AM  

SteelPalm, the last comes from a letter to an old friend Bil Patterson , also his biographer and editor of the Heinlein Journal

There is more at the link above.

Again this doesn't denigrate the quality of his work on helps people enamored with Starship Troopers understand his place on the political spectrum

Truth is Stranger in a Strange Land is a good reflection of the man as is Friday. You've probably read both , in the event you haven't I could not get through the former but quite liked the later


Heinlein wrote what he though would sell basically and when he could what he wanted to,

I recommend reading his quotes if you have a few minutes

Notable quotes has plenty below

http://www.notable-quotes.com/h/heinlein_robert_a.html

This will tell you much about the man.

Don't get me wrong, he still was an amazing author and Starship Troopers was the best Right Wing SF military of its time and possibly ever but assuming Heinlein though a patriotic vet was Right wing himself is almost certainly incorrect

Post a Comment

Rules of the blog
Please do not comment as "Anonymous". Comments by "Anonymous" will be spammed.

<< Home

Newer Posts Older Posts